How Pastors Can Navigate Deconstruction with Wayne Francis

In this episode of the Believe Again Podcast powered by Prabable Church Accounting and Bookkeeping, Pastor Wayne Francis discusses the concept of deconstruction in faith, sharing his personal journey and insights on navigating questions and doubts within the church. He emphasizes the importance of creating safe spaces for individuals to explore their faith, the need for integrity and humility in leadership, and the distinction between good and bad deconstruction. The conversation highlights practical tips for pastors to engage with their congregations and foster an environment where questioning is normalized, ultimately leading to deeper discipleship and understanding of faith.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

There are two forms of deconstruction. Good deconstruction doesn't provide departure, it actually provides discipleship. Bad deconstruction actually leads to you abandoning an entire faith system, including replacing it with another belief system that's entirely secular. You can win arguments and lose influence. And when you're in conversations with people that are trying to deconstruct the posture of a person shouldn't be to win the argument, it is to gain influence.

SPEAKER_02 0:31

Welcome to the Believe Again Podcast, powered by parable bookkeeping and accounting with your hosts, Josh and Amy Rapery. On this show, we discuss the challenges and triumphs of ministry, offering hope and practical insights for pastors and leaders everywhere. Our goal is to explore the heart of what it means to believe again and lead well in every season of ministry. Today we are so excited to welcome Pastor Wayne Francis on the show. He is a pastor, author, and also a podcast host. Wayne is the pastor of Life Church in the Metro, New York area. He's also the chaplain of the Brooklyn Knicks. He's an amazing, amazing, phenomenal communicator. He's passionate about building the local church and seeing people find real life in Jesus. You can catch him on his podcast with John Siebling Leadership in Black and White, where they talk about how to lead in the gray areas of life and also read his book, God and Race, that he wrote along with John Siegling. Wayne, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

Hey, so glad to be with you both. We've been friends for a while, but we haven't gotten on your podcast, so this is very cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Yeah, excited to talk about deconstruction with you. I heard you speak on it at the art conference. It's a topic I'm passionate about. This is an important topic, but man, tell me about the Brooklyn Nets. That's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

Yeah, the Brooklyn Nets, um, great opportunity to serve athletes. I had always wanted to do some chaplaincy. I had thought it would be like with the Yankees or with the Mets or something like that. But it just came along that from a mutual friend that was connected to the assistant GM, they had a space in their chaplaincy after COVID, and they wanted to um start it back up. And so they were looking for um a pastor in the New York region that could come in. And actually, I split the time with another friend of mine uh named Chris Durso just because there's so many games and leading a church and my own podcast and traveling and so on. It's just there's no way um one person could do it without it being a full-time job. There's something like 47 or 50 home games alone. So um, yeah, it's a long season, but I do a big bulk of the games with the athletes there and for the guest teams that come in, which I think is pretty exciting too, um, to serve athletes. So last year I did a really cool series. It was called Proverbs. See what we did there? Actually through the proverbs.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

I love proverbs. That's cool. I I love that. I've always loved your communication style and the way that you deliver the word of God, and it's always a treat to hear you communicate. And uh then you came to the art conference and you you taught on deconstruction, and it was a well-attended app session. People were taking crazy notes, just you were downloading some amazing thoughts to us on that. So, how did you get passionate about that topic and get swept up in the deconstruction conversation?

SPEAKER_01 3:15

Well, I think because I had my own deconstruction journey before we had a codified term, deconstruction. To me, it was more of me trying to figure out, you know, to go deeper into my theological positions. It wasn't like um the brick-by-brick dismantling of orthodoxy that is more rampant in deconstruction conversations. This was for me more like, hey, let's let's make sure that the framework is built on Christ and let's make sure that some of these things are not because I think when it comes to having a conversation about deconstruction, you're either going to move toward legalism or license, and that's usually a hard thing. It's either gonna be reckless or it's gonna be rules. And I think that when we're examining the scripture, we want to have a Trinitarian approach, father, son, spirit, filtering the scriptures and looking to build up the body of Christ, not to break down the body of Christ. So I think it was just me trying to read other things and kind of throw it against the wall and say, oh, that's not true. And that was um with a very strong Pentecostal holiness paradigm that was very strict, and it was more or less not looking to deconstruct doctrinal issues. It was more or less like, okay, these add-ons, these things that had to do with you know, your attire, what you wore, and where you didn't go and all that kind of stuff. So that's what started to pique my interest in really this subject matter, especially as it became more prevalent post-pandemic or just before the pandemic, where people were really getting a little bit into deconstruction.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

Well, I thought that was really good that you uh shared your perspective, where you're coming from, because I think uh whenever you hear the term deconstruction, there's gonna be a conversation on it. I think people need to know the perspective you're bringing into that conversation because that kind of determines a lot of how the conversation goes and where you're coming from.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

It's why I usually talk to people about my deconstruction journey with the movie The Village by M. Knight Shyamalan, and it's a fascinating movie. If you ever get a chance to watch it, you should because it basically is about this little fictional village where these people are contained in this village, and they're told that like there's these monsters, you know, outside of the village, and people are all scared to go any further, and there's these characters that are in there, and basically they're afraid to go further than where they've ever been, and it's the elders of the town that are meeting behind like some barn door trying to keep people contained, and one person decides to push past the quote unquote monsters and discovers that you know, like the I-95 highway is outside, but they've been living in some sort of colonial kind of context. And I think that's what the whole feeling of maybe what some people who deconstruct are wrestling with, right? Like they've been contained in a village and they somehow have this feeling that there's something on the outside, but instead of trying to, you know, add value, a lot of times they'll just try to destroy because they might feel duped or whatever. But I love the story of M. Knight Shamalan's movie, The Village, because I think it has a whole lot to do with what might create deconstructionists, which is the lack of the ability for people to ask questions and to really trust that the gospel stands sure and strong.

SPEAKER_02 6:30

I'm I'm thinking about my own early childhood where um the the kind of church family and church heritage that I come from is independent fundamental Baptist, which so take all the Holy Ghost from out of the equation and just the legalism maybe from what you your background came from. So we had the word, we were, we were, we knew the word of God, but there was all that legalism about what you could and couldn't wear, where you could and couldn't go. For instance, I I mean, one of my most distinct memories is is that you could not wear the color red as a woman because it was the color of the harlot. And that's King James version. Um, you know, anyway, but I love something, you know, that you said there in even talking about that movie The Village is you know, when you realize there's something beyond those walls, um and that can be a beautiful process for somebody, but not to then go and turn back and try to destroy what was in those walls. Um, and that really just kind of brings us to our first question for you is could you define what you believe deconstruction is, and maybe even what the different forms of deconstruction can look like.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Deconstruction is a critical critical dismantling of traditional modes of thought. It's a term that was originally coined by a French philosopher by the name of Jack De Ryder, who insisted that there was not a methodology to tear down everything that you see, but skepticism was a way to read text and to come to it with the idea that truth actually is not embedded in anything, really. So it's like this kind of idea of you have to approach everything with this measure of cynicism. And so other people started to turn this into a tool to break down systems. So the academic concept of deconstruction assumes that all moral claims or efforts to exert power over another person or another group of people is a it's preventing liberation or it's preventing you from taking something. So deconstruction means to unmask, to relativize, and to disempower such claims so they no longer hold us in sway. So that's a basic definition for deconstruction. However, there are two forms of deconstruction that we usually don't get into. There's good deconstruction and there's bad deconstruction. So, Amy, some of the things that you and I probably went through with our legalism, we probably needed to deconstruct. And I think some ways, when we deconstruct things that are not um biblical, that's not bad, right? But I think that the deconstruction movement that we're seeing in North America lacks honor. There's not a culture of honor. So for instance, even though there were some very legalistic things that had kept me quote unquote bound in some ways, and some of the I understand the approach that some people had and what their heart was behind it. And ultimately, a lot of the things that I got out of that context had formed a high appreciation for the word of God in my life, for prayer and all those things. So there's an honor where um you just don't deconstruct something and then move on. Christians indeed need to go through some periods of time where they emerge with more strength without abandoning their faith altogether. So here's what I like to tell people good deconstruction doesn't provide departure, it actually provides discipleship. Good deconstruction doesn't provide departure from your faith. It actually gives you discipleship to your faith. Bad deconstruction actually leads to you abandoning an entire faith system, including replacing it with another belief system that's entirely secular. So you move away from something that's spiritual, godly, and you replace it. And the popularity of deconstruction is that you're always unbelieving something. So sexuality issues change, gender, salvation, sin, hell, all these things just start to float when you um allow yourself to have some people determine what they believe truth is and what truth isn't.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

You know, when I was preparing uh to have this episode with you, I wanted to read a book or something that would give me uh some type of tool to intelligently have this conversation with you. And I came across a book called After Their Doubt by AJ Swoboda. And he mentions in his book that process you just talked about. The fact that you go through deconstruction doesn't mean that you need to depart from faith, but that it can be a tool for discipleship in faith. And what he suggests is that basically every Christian has three stages they have construction, deconstruction, and reconstruction. Love it, and that every single person should go through some form of deconstruction to remove the parts of things that maybe they believed without questioning before or that were wrong or not true, and replace it with the things that they could really hold on to. So I think you make a great point that um just because you go through deconstruction or you realize there's something on the other side of the village, doesn't mean you need to leave the village, or that everything else that you experience within Christianity was wrong or not true.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Yeah, because deconstruction without reconstruction is vandalism.

SPEAKER_02 11:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

It's basically you graffitiing something that you don't have the right to. And so we have to have a response, and I think that there are some things that we, as in the Capitol C church, we have to do in order to defend ourselves against a culture that's heavily swaying toward deconstruction, not only in the church. So I also think that there's this idea too where there's a sort of like arrogance where it's only happening in the church. I think it happens because the church does have ultimate truth, the word of God. But people are deconstructing everything, politics, you know, gender issues, fiscal issues, all these different things are, you know, are being deconstructed. So we want to be careful. We have a responsibility though to deploy truth to the world. So I believe that we have to accept responsibility when it comes to our response to deconstruction. Um, we have to be implicit on providing safe places, particularly for young people, to reconstruct their faith. We have to be the place where they can put together the Legos. And it's okay for them to feel safe in an atmosphere because everywhere else lacks the integrity and the stability to give people an opportunity to ask questions.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

Well, I thought you made a good point too about the fact that when you were defined deconstruction, that it's actually not something that just Christians are experiencing, that it's uh it's a philosophy that has basically infiltrated every part of culture. You know what it reminded me of, Amy, is when uh we used to watch Food Network all the time.

SPEAKER_02 13:33

Well, I was gonna say I first learned about deconstruction from watching Top Chef actually on Bravo, and they would come in. This is like 15 years ago now, and they would bring, I deconstructed risotto, and so instead of it being this big pot of risotto, it's like there's a teeny tiny mushroom here, and then there's a little cream here, and then there's a couple of grains of rice here, and put it all together yourself, you know.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

So yeah, that was probably my first exposure to uh deconstruction was something else, guys.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

Yeah, and it's a big deal because it's happening in so many different places, but I think the church has the primary responsibility as the distributors of truth to a world to take the responsibility to it's one of the reasons why I think more young people that are Christians, you know. I don't think it's bad to go to seminary, and I definitely don't think it's bad to get advanced degrees, but I think more grounded really Christians should get degrees in philosophy, perhaps, because that's where worldviews are being changed and challenged. I think that's why Paul was so effective.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

Yeah, you talked about our response, like and how we should make a safe place for that. Sometimes we're not doing a good job of that. There's statements that you can say that kind of like summarize your church's position on people sh struggling with faith. So, how can pastors really take a better stance in that conversation and set themselves up to be a safe place?

SPEAKER_01 14:54

You know, to be quite honest with you, the answer that I'm gonna give you is probably a little bit less on the nose. Um, because I think that pastors have to raise their level of integrity first. And what I mean by that is that the most powerful theology and the most interesting theology right now is a lived theology. One of the reasons why people are deconstructing is because they haven't seen enough integrity in the celebrity pastor culture or so on. So I think people want to see that the conviction actually matters without it being some brazen pulpit smashing, you gotta believe this type of thing. I think there needs to be this raising of a level of integrity. And I also think it's like this this humility that one needs to have. Um when people don't perceive that you have a humility, Christians, you can win arguments and lose influence. And when you're in conversations with people that are trying to deconstruct, the posture of a person shouldn't be to win the argument, it is to gain influence. Because as Christians, we don't fight for our rights, we lay down our rights and we pick up the cross and we let the cross communicate. And so, especially when it comes to like 18 to 34-year-olds, they ain't playing the hell's games, man. You know, it's a totally different generational gap when it comes to this conversation about deconstruction.

SPEAKER_02 16:16

What what I learned, you know, my journey actually began as a young teenager where I began to go to another youth ministry and it was a spirit-filled church, and I began to see these teenagers on fire for God, worshiping him with abandoned, you know, not afraid to share their faith. Um, but yet all the girls were in jeans, and I wasn't allowed to wear jeans. I had to wear a long dress. Um but but you're not gonna get me to go and share my face with anybody because it's so weird. And so I began to, as a very young teenager, began to see something inside of others that I desired because I loved the Lord, but I did not have the experience that they were experiencing, and I wanted that experience. So I actually began to take that first step before the rest of my family did. And eventually my parents took that step out of that more legalistic version of Christianity and it kind of transformed some of the trajectory of my family. But then, Wayne, what's interesting is is that as later in in adulthood in my 30s, I began to still see that some of that legalism was in me, but it was coming, it it was projecting in a different way. And it was a heart issue. There was there was some heart things that God still needed to do a deep work in me that probably um, you know, I I don't know if deconstruction is the right word, but but really where I began to question some things about what not not really what I believed about the Bible and what I believed was true, but about the way that I've been applying it in my life towards my spouse, towards my family, towards my friends and just Christian relationship and community. And that's really where that even deeper deconstruction began to happen for me. But again, you know, I I I think it just kind of comes back to the heart, you know, it's like, where is the heart of the matter for you? But and I have to say, like when I was in that youth group and experiencing those things that were so freeing and was baptized in the Holy Spirit and just began to have a whole nother relationship with the Lord, I didn't hate my old youth group or my old church. It's a good thing my dad was on past uh pastor on staff at that church. Um, but I didn't hate it. You know, I loved it and I didn't seek to destroy it or tear it down or go back and tell everybody they were wrong. And in fact, it was quite quite the opposite. I was so grateful for it and for that being my my heritage and my beginning. Are you a church planner navigating the complexities of starting a new ministry? Parable understands your journey because their founders, Greg and Jessica Daly, were once in your exact shoes. They know the unique challenges and financial stress you face as a ministry leader. They are here to help.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

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SPEAKER_01 19:21

Um, you you, Josh, you know, just talking about the responsibility, you know, or what capacity do. I mean, you know, the world doesn't read Bibles, it reads people. And so I also think that in this time to contend against deconstruction, we actually have to make a really good biblical strategy for our churches for people to learn the scriptures and for leaders to actually learn the scriptures. There's this kind of, you know, when we got into this real, you know, and I'm not against series, uh, we do series at our church, but I think that we don't usually have a process in our minds of how are we spiritually forming people with what we preach and teach so that they're actually learning the Bible systematically. And I think that there is a way to do it. In fact, our church has come up with a three-year strategy, presuming that people are only in church 1.8 times a month. What do they need to know so that they can actually have the tools and the lot to be quite honest with you? Part of the challenges that we've seen in 2020 with even like the politics and all of this stuff with evangelicals and so on, has to do with not having a very good biblical worldview that people have deconstructed the scriptures so much that we don't even know how to think the right way. So I think that every pastor needs a year one, year two, year three. Here's some hermeneutical tools that we're gonna teach our church so that they can learn how to think correctly without breaking everything down. They actually know how to build things up.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

Yeah, that's so important. Just understanding the Bible is is the number one defense against deconstruction. Uh, when I was a teenager, I remember someone um having a moral failure, and uh a couple people around me is like, hey, I'm just so discouraged, you know, so and so, you know, what does that mean? I'm just like, how does that I didn't make the connection? Like, I wasn't discouraged by that person making a mistake. It didn't, it didn't influence me, it didn't impact me. And I think probably one of the main reasons why was because of my own personal relationship with Jesus through the reading of the word. Yeah, you know, I was already in love with the Bible as a teenager, I was reading it, and so I understood throughout the history of the Bible that people fell into sin, great leaders, made mistakes. It's part of our human story. And, you know, I was talking to someone yesterday about this. He's not deconstructing, but he's disentangling, he's trying to disentangle some things that he's associated with church from the wrong things. And um, he was asking me about you know, men of God doing things that that probably aren't the best or that he agrees with. So some of them not even wrong, just stuff he doesn't agree with. And I just thought, I just had this thought, and I was like, you know, I think sometimes God allows. that to happen so that we take our eyes off of man and put him back on God, not so we take them off of God. And if your eyes are on God that you're you're focused on Him. You know, another thing I came across when I was reading that book by AJ Swoboda was this term he calls it iatrogenic a atrogenic diseases, which are diseases that you catch when you go to the hospital. So the hospital is a place that brings healing, but uh there's some diseases and things that are much more easily caught in a hospital than you would outside. But that doesn't mean you stop going to the hospital or that the hospital's not a place of healing. Do you have any thoughts on that and how it relates to deconstruction?

SPEAKER_01 22:38

Yeah that's a very fascinating uh concept and and uh that is very very fascinating. As I think about it and ponder it um I I think it's totally right because the idea of not going to a church or to a community of faith that gathers which we commonly call church because of the possibility that you might get you know infected with something is absolutely ridiculous, right? We're not there's no way to insulate that's the problem. I think what happened is many churches tried to insulate people from catching any sort of infirmity. It's like we're gonna preach and we're gonna teach and let's amen back and forth. But you know what there could be people that are in our context in a life group or so on that end up making some space for some things that just don't work. Jesus was not afraid of it. I mean just go to Mark you know the guy that says hey I believe but touch my unbelief right there's that binary thing and uh that that it seems as though is the best way for us to actually encounter God. God is very much okay with turning our question marks into exclamation points. It's I like to say that you know sometimes like question marks are just cynical exclamation points. They believe something at one point and then something hit them it's like oh I just don't have the same faith anymore. So how do we we make question marks get excited again till they stand up and they are a declaration of faith you you create space.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

So uh what are some practical tips you would give a pastor who's having a conversation with someone maybe it's a college student who uh is you know doubting or you know considering walking away from the faith or they're bringing up the topic of deconstruction how can pastors navigate those conversations well I think pastors should engage questioning shouldn't run from it.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

First John 4 beloved do not believe every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they are from God for many false prophets have gone out into the world. So engaging some questioning to find out whether or not this is a person that's actually seeking truth or this is a person that's already made a decision. And that takes discernment so most pastors a lot of people come to you after they've made a decision. If somebody's inviting you into a process of questioning then we should engage it. If it's uh if it's about arguing then we have enough scripture from 1 Timothy and 2 Timothy don't engage in useless and endless ideologies and you know avoid arguing and so on because they don't leave they actually lead to the ruin of the hairs is what the scripture says so you have to have a level of discernment to engage questioning. Number two, I think we should examine ourselves and where we are where are we personally on this journey right? Like let's make sure that we're solid um in our faith and that we're constantly studying as well I think a lot of times pastors get the essentials down resurrection of Christ baptism infilling of the Holy Spirit but they don't go back to even check there to make sure that they they study and Paul tells him study to show yourself to prove a workman that doesn't need to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth that means you have to go back to the foundations um number three I think that pastors need to curate teaching opportunities and environments for elderly leaders and so this is a really good opportunity to make sure that we're moving generations along and we're not taking presumptions that everybody is buying it. Everybody is not buying it we have to make sure that we're doing everything that we can to ensure that there's alignment with our our beliefs I think it's important every year to do some sort of doctrinal series but I don't think that people want to drink from hydrants so you need a system how every month am I teaching the gospel? How am I creating space or questions? In your preaching and teaching do you even make room for the cynic in the room in the room? I think that's a big deal. I can't tell you how many sermons I listen to where everybody the preacher's just presuming that everybody is buying what they're they're saying. Create some space in the service hey if you're here today and you're not sure if you believe in Jesus or in fact you're actually a little bit hostile towards some of the things that you read in the scriptures we want to give you space to press in today in fact I'm gonna give you some room to disagree or tell the audience guess what these words were written to Christians and Christians have a really hard time over history obeying these words and so if you're here today and you're not a believer you get to eavesdrop on some things that we who are beliefs like create some space for people to question and to feel a part of a community that is not just acting like everything is set in stone. There are some things that are set in stone and there's other things that we can have a conversation because the cement is wet.

SPEAKER_00 27:23

Amazing Amy any thoughts that was a mouthful I'm sorry I think that's great.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

I mean just what that so practical training that you just gave the pastors right there of creating space within their sermon within their teaching and preaching and how they can do that. I love what you said that these words were with written to believers or written to Christians and you're getting to eavesdrop now you're getting to see you know that we don't always apply this to our life.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

100% what a great tip. I love to tell the audience sometimes like hey guys if you're here and you're not a Christian you're Jewish you're Muslim or you just consider yourself spiritual like I'm glad you're here today you get to be a fly on the wall let's watch the Christian squirm now and I think you have to do that.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

I love that that's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

You you gotta do it every week as well. This uh fall we're gonna be highlighting a vision story of a guy that was Jewish that was coming to our church um for multiple weeks with his wife became a Christian he did not buy into Christianity and he said the fact that I said every week hey if you're here today and you're not a Christian let me talk to you or hey I'll come back to you in a minute because this stuff isn't going to apply to you. So we're not coming for you about your sexuality we're not coming for you da da and it created space for him to start journeying in because silently somewhere we're acknowledging him.

SPEAKER_02 28:40

And what that does in a church is that it creates a theology that says that you can have questions and you can really make room for people that don't buy in yet I'm imagining a a teenager or a student growing up in a church like that where each week they're sitting in a room where the preaching and the teaching is coming from that perspective of we're all going to have questions. The unbeliever that's here has questions. The believer here that has questions and this is a normal healthy part of my Christian engagement.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 29:16

Meaning it's normal in my faith because I think that's part of what makes deconstruction so earth shattering for some for some is that the first time like Josh mentioned a tragedy happens or or somebody disappoints them something happens and they began to question, they began to have doubts and it shatters their faith because they it hasn't been normalized in their Christian community that we're gonna have doubts. We're gonna have questions. And from you saying right there from from the pulpit each week that the pastor can create that space I really think that you're shedding so much light practically right now on how you can create a faith community where that that is normal. And so when that happens when that moment of doubt hits that that student that teenager that young adult it's not earth shattering to them. Yep yep yep and they know exactly where they can show up on Sunday because they're like yeah this is normal.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

And bring their friends yes you know that that making space and uh I know we're we're we're kind of wrapping up here so I I don't mean to get too fast you know we um you're talking about making space and I think about the the father of the prodigal son made space for his son and that's why he was able to return. And if we don't make space for people then they don't know where home is and so they just continue looking for it forever. And I think about the prodigal son being blessed by his father he gave him his inheritance he didn't have to give him his inheritance he gave him his inheritance even though he knew he was going in the wrong direction. Right. And I I I thought about that during my biggest season of you know if you want to use the term deconstruction I think I was disentangling stuff but um in the broader sense deconstructing and I thought about that. I thought about um man he he let him go gave him money to go in the wrong direction. Why did he do that? He didn't have to well because when he got to the bottom of the rope he wanted to know which direction to go back to yes I think when we take too hard of a line with people we give them too many ultimatums we're just like well I guess I guess you just abandoning God. You're just abandoning everything we we close the door to home when we do that and I would love to see more people open the door and I think you've given us some really great ways that pastors can open the door by preaching the gospel every week living to a higher standard of integrity making space for people who are unbelievers in your services I I think uh you've done a great job of that today.

SPEAKER_01 31:40

And I think that churches also need to understand um you you mentioned Luke 15 and um there were other people involved in the restoration project. It's not just before the father received him but there was other people that were grabbing the sandals there was other people that were getting the robes there were other people that made a person that went away they were part of the process of restoration and I think that churches have to have a culture where it's not just the father that's running out but they're also assisting killing the fatted lamb to welcome somebody back into the house that we're all a part of the restoration project of people that deconstruct. So good.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

Any last word you want to give us I think you gave us a great one there but any last words and how can people stay in touch with you?

SPEAKER_01 32:26

You can stay in touch with me by um thelifechurchnewyork.com I am at Wayne Francis on Instagram so if you want to see what I'm eating what I'm wearing who I'm hanging with and where I'm going I usually probably am always putting something on my story that is fun and I like to dance and so you'll see a little bit of that. But otherwise I do want to encourage people right now um making room for questions is not going to um the gospel stands the the grass withers and the flower fades but the word of God stands forever. Paul told Timothy I may be chained but the word of God is not chained and I think that we need to be people that just stand up realizing that God's word and that the entire culture even people that are secular are starting to see that the Christian worldview is the best way for human flourishing even if they don't believe in the resurrection of Jesus they're coming around now understanding that the Christian ethos has a powerful way of forming people. So be encouraged.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

Awesome well thank you thanks for joining us today. Absolutely we just finished up talking with Pastor Wayne Francis about deconstructive I thought it was really good conversation. Amazing uh what stood out to you?

SPEAKER_02 33:35

I think he he gave such practical insights specifically to pastors. So if you're a senior pastor um I really encourage you in this episode to take that advice because he really taught us how to create space even like in a Sunday morning environment in your preaching and teaching weekly for those that are coming in that are either unbelievers or those that are struggling in their faith or they have questions and they have doubts and how in your services you can really begin to create space for that. And so I was really inspired and impressed with that.

SPEAKER_00 34:08

Yeah I I thought I thought it was important that you talked about there's two types of deconstruction there's a deconstruction that leads to departure and there's a deconstruction that leads to discipleship. Yeah and I think that if you approach everyone that's the faith as someone who's departing from it, I think you're gonna have a lot of trouble because there is a there is a part of our our faith that's always been deconstructed to me.

SPEAKER_02 34:30

Well and I I think too there's there's deconstructing parts of your experience which I call disentangling. And then there's somebody deconstructing their faith completely. And I I think those are really very different things. Really destroying their faith right and so and that's where I think you see some of those just my opinion what can become just a a a toxic cycle because at that point it's it's it's decon it's deconstructing and I'm putting air quotes if you're listening on podcast app and not YouTube, um you're deconstructing but your heart really the change isn't happening in in your heart as much as it's you're now trying to destroy something and tear something down. Awesome well thanks for joining us on this episode of the Believe again podcast powered by Parable. We want to thank our sponsor Parable Church Accounting Bookkeeping and strategic services Parable helps you place every dollar on mission telling the story of his kingdom. And you can find out more at liveyourparable dot com and make sure you let them know that you heard about Parable from Believe again.

SPEAKER_00 35:40

I want to thank our guest again Wayne Francis. He's an amazing uh communicator and so glad we had the privilege of having him on this show. He found it helpful this conversation on deconstruction we hope you share it with a friend. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at believe again.co for more inspiration throughout the week please go and give us a rating wherever you get your podcast it's the number one way you can support the show and make sure we continue to get great guests on until next time keep believing and leading strong